Episode Transcript
So one of the things we used to ask was, "I'm going to tell you a few numbers, can you say them backwards?" Okay. So the kids sit and they think. And some kids can do it. Some kids cannot. It's ok. One little girl peered at us for a good 10 or 15 seconds when we asked that question. And she turned around in her chair and said the numbers not backwards, but she was turned around backwards. Genius Now that was a kid who was really thinking creatively. It was wonderful. That sort of stopped us in our tracks. And we didn't even know what she was doing until we figured out, yeah, backwards, so she turned around. I'm looking for kids who do things like that. Hey everyone, it's Antonia back with another episode of QuestionAble Strategy. And the voice you just heard was Babby Krents. Now, what can I say about Babby? First of all, and most importantly, she is an angelic and hilarious human being, which you will hear from this episode. I can safely say that this was one of the most fun conversations to record. I was on the ground laughing nearly the entire time. So I'm so excited for you to hear this, but secondly, and the reason why she's on this podcast is for the past 30 years, she's been the Head of Admissions at The Dalton School in New York City. And what she's been doing for those 30 years is admitting classes of really smart, intelligent, wonderful humans from the age of four years old for a private K-12 education. Now, in New York City, getting your child into kindergarten is one of the most stress inducing, crazy experiences for a parent. And as somebody without children, I can only imagine what that's like. But Babby has seen lots of children and lots of parents going through this high stakes experience for 30 years. And she's just stepped down from that position this year. So we are the first to hear 30 years of stories from the woman that Bill Keller, former editor of the New York Times, named "the most powerful person in New York City." Let that sink in. That's crazy. Now, I have a personal connection to Babby, which is when I was four years old, she discovered me in a park. Not in a creepy way. And we talk about this during our conversation. After witnessing an interaction between myself and my dad, Babby came up to us and told my dad that I had to apply to Dalton. And lo and behold, that is where I ended up going to school for 12 years. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation. I won't keep it from you any longer. This is how a kindergarten admissions director asks questions with Babby Krentz. Babby, welcome to QuestionAble Strategy. Thank you, Antonia. It's an honor to have been asked by you, because I do remember you when you were a little girl coming right into the office I'm sitting in right now to be interviewed when you were a tiny teeny little tot. It's an honor and I'm so proud of all the things you've done. Thank you for asking me. I'm just excited to have a little bit of a role reversal here, because how the tables have turned now that I am interviewing you. So, just wanted to say, very frankly to you, this is one of the most exciting interviews for me because you undoubtedly changed my life when I was a four year old and I apologize because I don't remember being interviewed by you. But I certainly will remember this interview for a long time. You're one of the first people that I thought of for this podcast When I came up with this idea, I was really scared to do it. And I was trying to think of who I know who asks questions in a really interesting capacity, and you were literally the top of my list. And so if you said no, I would have been devastated. I would never say no to you. I'm happy. I would never say, I would never say no to you. Before you start, what's special for me, for this interview too, is I've done this for 30 years, and I have I guess, a month left. So you're catching me at the end of a journey that no one has asked me about yet. So you are it right now, Antonia, in terms of what was this journey like and so I'm particularly gratified you asked me at this point. That means a lot as somebody who, I was just doing some research, Babby, and there is information on you from the New York Times, and so the fact that you are saying to me that I get the inside scoop on 30 years of your career is unbelievable to me. This is true, though. Aw, thanks. Just kicking it off, who inspired you to be curious? I would say it really was my parents. I came from a very curious, very creative family. My father was a radio and television producer who came up with fantastic ideas for different shows that he put on. My father actually was kind of a fascinating guy. During his radio and television career, during the McCarthy era, he was the one who would hire blacklisted actors and actresses. They couldn't get jobs anywhere. He developed this program and my mother was a script writer. So I was surrounded by people by people who were curious, who were asking questions, saying why do things have to be the way they are? Conversations around the dinner table were always about current events, about, particularly about civil rights and things that were going on in our country, which I think had something to do, more than I think, it had a lot to do with the fire in my belly about diversity and what has gone on here at Dalton over these past 30 years, and not just racial, but across the board. I also, watched my brother, who's kind of a a very interesting story I, I had a brother who was born premature at two pounds. Back in the 1940s, and the doctors didn't know back then how to handle preemies. They put them in incubators and popped the retinas and hundreds of thousands of Babbyes' eyes, so blinded them. Certainly, they didn't know what they were doing. So I had a blind brother, and nobody wanted him at schools. Absolutely no school would take him. He was a bright guy, my mom had no, there was no help for her back then to how to raise a blind child, a blind baby. And I really had extraordinary parents, again getting to your question. But my mother was as creative and determined as possible. And got my brother into a large public school. He went on to graduate president of his school. He went to Harvard. He went to Harvard Law School. He's a White House fellow, an Oxford University fellow. He was just a very bright guy, but no school would have anything to do with him. And I was a very curious kid watching that unfold, even though I was young. Again, and that that kept me curious, asking a lot of questions about why life was like this. Why was there so much discrimination? And then of course I went on to Dalton, and Dalton was a place, as you know, cause you went there, for very curious kids. And they let me do these wonderful things. They let me fulfill my curiosity. So it started from the time I was tiny. And I hope I'm still as curious now as when I, was a little kid a zillion years ago. I can confirm that you most certainly are. Can you please, for anybody who doesn't know or who doesn't have a young child, can you tell me on a broad level how asking questions plays into your day to day life as the Dalton Head of Admissions? It's all about questions. That's how I figure out who these kids are and how I figure out who these families are. I started 30 years ago in a very different place from where I am today with 30 years of experience under my belt in terms of how you question children and how do you understand parents. To me in the admissions process. I would say it's almost 60 /40 in terms of 60%, I want to know that child inside out best I can in a short period of time. But it's also about the families. And that's been truly my guiding lamppost in how I go about doing admissions because I do believe that children reflect the value systems of their parents. There were some years where I had a thousand families applying for kindergarten for very few spots. And we saw every one of those children and we saw every one of those parents. You have to figure out who these folks are. And they come well rehearsed thinking that I want to hear certain things. Oh, I bet And my job is to get them, so relaxed that they'll put their shoulders down and I can start asking them questions where they don't feel they're on the spot. Children, it's a whole different scene. And I'm talking about four year olds right now because people are fascinated by how can you really figure out what a four year old knows, and how can you predict whether they'll be successful at a school? You really can. The questions that we have developed over the years to ask children, the assessment we've developed for children that we've been using for, maybe 20 25 years, and it really does predict. It correlates well with later success at Dalton. And it's fun. I did my dissertation on humor development in children, and I use humor all the time. Not only with the kids, but with the parents as well. Humor is a wonderful thing. I learned that from my brother, actually. Because my brother put people at ease with his blindness by having a wicked sense of humor. I find that humor goes a long way with the kids and with the families to help them relax. Children Children are pretty much relaxed. There are introverted, there are extroverted kids, but for the most part, if they have some good toys in front of them, they're going to show their true selves in all different ways. There's a lot to unpack there. First off, you mentioned that, you're interviewing kids, you're interviewing parents, and you need to put them at ease. What are questions that you tend to start with that put children at ease? And what are questions that you tend to start with that put the parents at ease? Because like you said, the parents are coming as nervous wrecks. The children are just tagging along, effectively. Well the children At the beginning of the process, you can always tell the kids who start in October coming to us versus the pros who come in December. By December, they've been to so many schools. They just walk in and they check out your toys. They want to know what present are they going to get. We don't give anything. We always say, I think you're going to have a lot of fun here." And they go, "oh, okay." But they're expecting a plant or a pencil. They don't any of that at Dalton. But for the most part, They do come in ready to take a look at what you have to offer them. Some of them are nervous, but again, more so at the beginning. By the end of the process, these kids are just walking in pretty much at ease. But I will tell you the same response applies to both. What do I do to help them relax? There's a New York term: schmoozing. Schmoozing goes a really long way with four year olds, and it goes a really long way with families, too, with nervous parents. What I do at the beginning, before I start any interview, let's say with parents, first of all, usually their arms, their shoulders are up around their ears, they're so nervous. If I shake hands with them, my hands stick to the hands because they're so sweaty. Um, so, so I have my sweat meter to know how much schmoozing I need to do to get those shoulders to start going down. And, I probably should do a mid interview handshake to see if the sweat has stopped pouring off them. For science. Yeah, for science research. That's right pre and post tests and mid test. Mostly it's the dads who have sweaty hands, I'll say. I don't want to do a gender stereotype here because we do a lot of gender equity at our school However, I think the fathers are just really more nervous. I think if you say to a couple tell me about your child that really helps a lot. Usually they only have that opportunity to talk to the grandparents and brag about their children, but here I'm saying, go ahead, you've got dispensation. Let it fly, I want to hear all about this child. Now a mother can just jump right in again stereotyping here, but the dads sometimes they just don't seem quite as comfortable at it. I think in some cases, both parents sometimes fall into the trap of thinking they need to present to me. They're used to presenting in their careers. That's not what I'm looking for, I'm really looking for them to be relaxed and just tell me about this wunderkind of yours, basically. And if you give them that opportunity, most tend to take it. I've had some odd ones over the years where, I'm not quite sure where they were coming from. There was this dad and the response was, "Well, there's not much to tell." I said, "Really?" "Just kind of average kid." I'm going, "Really? Does he like to listen to books?" "No, not really." Any special play toy?" "No. Again, I think he's just an average kid." Okay, good. All right. You really can't think of one thing to tell me about your child that you're proud of or tell me a moment that, you were kind of excited by something he or she or they did?" No, nothing. I'm shocked. Yeah, then you have the other extreme, who really think their children walk on water, and there's no stopping them. You could, I don't know, I feel as though sometimes I need to pour water into their mouths, because must be dry at this point. They're going on and on about how this child writes a symphony, and there was one parent we had a couple years ago, who went on and on in the parent statement, it's an optional parent statement, before we even meet the family and the child. It was It was a single mom, she went on and on about how her child really is as close to being Rembrandt as you can imagine. That she takes her every day to the Met, and the child can spend three or four hours sketching paintings at the Met, and of course that has to take away from the time where she's doing her piano practice, her Suzuki violin. She does do soccer she does, spend about five to six hours a day in her extracurriculars, but her art is outstanding. I'm saying, wow, that's great. But I'm thinking five or six hours. This is a four year old. When is she sleeping? When is she getting to take a bath? So when her interview was over, I had been out of the room and one of the things we do ask the children to do is draw a picture of anybody. It doesn't really mean that much to us, but It's something you did it too, Oh, I'm sorry. I don't remember if you were Rembrandt, but this child was supposed to be Rembrandt, so I was highly psyched, ready to take a look at that picture. So I called my assessors in and said, Alright, present me with the picture of a person, because from what the mother says, it's going to be outstanding. For a piece of paper that was a regular piece of paper, most kids will draw a picture of a face. Some will stick a little stick body on. Some this is very often, you see this among girls, but I'm not going to say always, but among girls, we've got every part of the body you ever can imagine. We've got the little ears, we've got the earring, we've got the eyelashes, we've got the, the lipstick, we've got the whole scene. And they're in fancy dresses or whatever. And again, I don't want to be stereotypical, because that's not always the case. But I can't wait to see Rembrandt's picture. So I see this piece of paper, and I'm waiting, I can't wait. There is almost nothing on that paper, but in the corner, in the very bottom of the corner, there must be an eighth of an inch drawing of a stick figure. And that is what Rembrandt produced. That is appalling. Now, you can do a little armchair psychology on that and say, Huh, is that child just feeling so overwhelmed by so much coming that she sees herself as being an eighth of an inch in the corner of a piece of paper. But just goes to show, Rembrandt was not Rembrandt, and that poor child I think was just so overscheduled. So the questions getting back to your questions. I think if you schmooze people up, and you schmooze the kids up first, and you get on the floor with them. I lie down on the floor with them, and we talk about their buildings, we talk we can move that into something that they did yesterday. Did they build yesterday? And they'll start talking. And once they start talking, we know they're warmed up. And once they're warmed up, then we bring them over and we do the assessment, which is about a 15 to 20 minute assessment that has a lot of humor in it. As I told you, I helped develop it many years ago. years ago. We had four psychologists look at it who really liked it. Those questions get at how does a child's mind work? We're not looking to see if they know how to read. We're not looking to see if they know their numbers. We're looking to see how they think. Those kind of questions are for the kids. And of course, we sit them at the table and we schmooze with them about what they're drawing and things like that. But we don't have set questions. One of the things people are most curious about is what are the kind of questions you really want to talk to a child about. And we focus on problem solving. Can you give me an example of a problem solving question? Sure, for a four year old. So you're walking along and grandpa just gave you two quarters. Oh, and then all of a sudden, there was a loud noise, and you dropped the quarters, and it went down the grate in the sidewalk. And we make sure they know what a grate is, and we, make sure they know the vocabulary, so that across the board, they're all getting that question. How to get those quarters back? And they think, and some kids will go, "They're gone!" And other kids will say "we could ask maybe somebody who knows how to pull the grate out to get it," or "maybe I could take a long pole and put scotch tape on it and squish it down the grate and see if I can catch the quarter." That's the kind of thing we think about, all these questions to see how does their mind work. And you have to ask them by themselves when they're four, because if you ask them in a group, they all say, "I'd do the same thing," "I'd do the same thing," "I'd do the same thing." So you need to get them off to the corner Or "you saw, you went to the zoo and there was an animal that got lost. How are we going to get that animal back to the cage? What are we going to do?" Those are the kind of questions we ask. That actually sounds kind of fun. Oh, it's fun. I have to wonder though how much of These interviews with children, would you say, hinges on luck? Whether the child is having a good day, or a bad day, or just got into a fight with their parents, or is trying to spite their parents. Maybe Rembrandt was trying to spite their mother, and drew this terrible little sick figure in the corner. It could be. That's why we can't rely on just the interview, when they're four years old. And even at middle school and high school, because I do admissions K-12. There are so many pieces to the puzzle. And this can be a, I don't want to say scary, because it's not scary, but you're not comfortable as a four year old in an environment that you don't know. So we go to their schools and we watch them. We send our assessors out to, they also go off to the preschools to see how that child is interacting with others what they're building, what's going on, talk to the teacher, talk to the directors. That's an important piece. And then there's also something in the independent schools in New York City, private schools in New York, called The School Report Form. So we're also getting a, multi page form on what their language is like, how they behave, interaction with other kids. So we get it directly from the school as well. There used to be standardized testing for four year olds, but I consider that one of my career high points, where I was on the board of what was called the ISAAGNY, Independent School Admission Association of Greater New York many years ago. I got a task force together and brought in a wonderful fellow by the name of Sam Meisels who was head of the Erickson Institute to work with ISAAGNY to really talk to us how, where standardized testing might have a role later on it really doesn't have a role with four year olds. Because it's not predictive in any way. So what was going on in New York is that people were just hiring consultants, at huge cost to teach the kids either the answers or similar questions, so that they would all get top scores. So we would get these kids, who had topped out on what they called the ERBs. It was given at the Educational Records Bureau, and that's why it was called ERB, but it really was the WPPSI test, which was the IQ test for that age group. And they were coming in with these top scores, but when we asked them to do our assessment, they told us that they worked with special tutors. We didn't ask. They would say, "I saw this before. I know how to do this. Because somebody asked me something like this before." They were so coached. And I'm really proud of the fact that maybe 10 or 12 years ago, The ISAAGNY schools voted to stop giving that standardized test for four year olds. So that was, to me, one of the high points of my career to help folks come to an understanding of why that was not a good thing to be doing. And in terms of equity, it was really unfair because so many children and so many families could not afford to have those consultants teach them what was on that test. I think that's a fascinating thing to bring up actually, because when we're talking about questions, there are some forms of questions, notably these standardized tests for four year olds that are so ineffective and can actually have a harmful result for a lot of people and for admissions and for equity. So I appreciate you bringing that up. In these conversations with kids, what's one behavioral and one verbal sign that you associate with a child that would be successful at Dalton? I'm going to give you an example of one of my favorite situations we, we had years ago with little girl. So one of the things we used to ask was, "I'm going to tell you a few numbers, can you say them backwards?" Okay. So the kids sit and they think. And some kids can do it. Some kids cannot. It's ok. One little girl peered at us for a good 10 or 15 seconds when we asked that question. And she turned around in her chair and said the numbers not backwards, but she was turned around backwards. Genius Now that was a kid who was really thinking creatively. It was wonderful. That sort of stopped us in our tracks. And we didn't even know what she was doing until we figured out, yeah, backwards, so she turned around. I'm looking for kids who do things like that, who ask really interesting questions maybe about even the directions for a particular task. Our assessment has about 30 different tasks on it, and the child who asks why or wants further clarification is a kid who's really thinking. And again, please don't think that we're only looking for extroverts and those kids who are able to ask those questions. A lot of kids are just chewing on their shirt the whole time, they're a little bit more introverted. We have had selective mutes apply to Dalton over the years, a number of them actually. I remember taking a little girl who years ago wouldn't say a word. By the end of kindergarten she was definitely talking more. And then came graduation, and there she was and she was the speaker for the class and I got a major kick out of the fact Yep, had not said a word. So a child who asks questions, not necessarily even here, but when I give that family opportunity to brag, and I say, "you can brag now. What is it that makes you proud of your child? What kind of questions did your child ask you?" There's a very interesting statistic that children at the age of four and five years old ask between three and four hundred questions a day. So if you're, if this is about questioning, you should know that they're big questioners. Indeed. And the sad thing is that, by end of second grade, I I can't cite the study for you in terms of specifics about it. By the end of second grade, there's a precipitous drop in questionings. The kids stop asking questions at that same rate. And the feeling is among educators is that they're smart little kids, and they come to realize by the end of second grade, the teacher just wants the right answer. And so, therefore, there is that drop in questioning. And we feel, you know, again, speaking personally for this particular school, that if you can harness that questioning, if you can harness that curiosity, and keep those questions coming, and keep them saying, "I have a great idea," so that not everyone has to do a project the same way, because children have different ideas of how they want to do it, that's one of the best ways to keep that curiosity that children need. I always quote and it changes every couple of years, the statistic that 85 percent of the jobs that children will be, employed in by the time they get out of college, the elementary age child now and later on, those jobs have not been invented yet. And I, it was just yesterday I was saying 65%. It's 85%. I am sure in five years it will be 90, 95%. So unless you keep that curiosity going, that questioning, you're putting them behind the eight ball. You're not really preparing them for this world. We start when they're very young looking for those kids who question a lot. And again, we probably will not see it right in the interview room, but once we put our puzzle together with all those different pieces, we can usually identify those kinds of kids. Babby, I don't know what I'm gonna do with this or if I'm gonna have tote bags or t shirts or whatever, but literally exactly what you just said is the entire point of why I'm doing this podcast. I'm fascinated by questions and it's really heartening to know that, from a very early age, question asking is one of the most, if not the most important sign of future success. And define success, however you want, but I'm pretty sure that with multiple definitions of success, being able to ask great questions is a tell. I'll let you know if I, put any of your quotes on anything ever in the future. For legal reasons. No, you can have it. Feel free, take any any of my pearls are your pearls now. Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate it. You mentioned that there are different types of personalities that you see. You've got extroverted kids, you've got introverted kids, you've got selective mute children. Do you find it easier to get to know certain types of children with certain types of personalities over others? Well, I think when you have the more outgoing children, they can't wait to tell you everything. Like, "I'm here at your school, but actually I'm gonna be going to the school across the street, because Mommy said I'm just practicing at this school." You hear more than you can imagine from these kids who are just very outgoing. If these parents ever heard the kind of things these kids say, children tell us, they would probably faint. We're not asking them, they're just telling us. So yes, you do get to know probably the outgoing kids quite well, but I'm as fascinated with the children who are not as forthcoming. And maybe it's because I like challenge, I want to see, uh, if I can pull that child out. So, it might be easier, yes, but You know, all children have something to give, and all children have incredible potential in their own way, in an individual way. We have to, it's our job, it's not their job, it's our job to be able to pull that out. And as you say, it's mostly the comfort, level before you start the questioning. And then, they will start to unwrap who they are. the more engaging questions you can ask them And again, the more you can put humor into it, not everyone appreciates humor, but a lot of four year olds do. Silly humor. we're not talking about sophisticated humor, though some have it. But incongruous humor? Four year olds get incongruous humor. And again, I did my dissertation, as I said, on humor development in children. So, humor really goes a long way in the questions we ask. Can you say a little bit more about that? Because I actually study improv comedy and that's one thing that I've become really passionate about. I want to know how you bake humor into these questions. Can you give me an example? Let me think about, where have we used humor? It's almost, first of all, the stories we read to the kids are usually stories that are, that are kind of funny. Uh, and I'm sort of curious to see which of the kids, we put four of them on, on the couch, and when they're done with all the assessments, we gather them all and we read them a story. Whenever possible, we read them a really funny story. And then I look to see who's getting it. and you can tell right away which kids are getting it. My dissertation was sort of interesting. I drew my dissertation, which was over 40 years ago. I know how many years ago my dissertation was because I gave birth to my daughter four hours after passing my orals. So when I say how many years ago, she's 42. That's so badass. Yes, no kidding. I mean, honestly, I, I, I made it by four hours, and then went right into labor and, and had her, she has a very good sense of humor. I think she actually was listening I looked at how eight year olds comprehend and appreciate humor. I compared hearing children to profoundly deaf children because I taught deaf children for a number of years. And those children that we selected did not have access to sign language. Back in the years when I was doing my dissertation, there were a number of schools which only wanted to teach, deaf children how to lip read and speak. So, there is a difference between children way back when who had deaf parents, who were signed to at birth, and those who had hearing parents. And 90 percent of deaf children do have hearing parents, and they did not have the facility with language because of their deafness. So I drew this test with incongruous humor. And I asked deaf children and hearing children to respond to the questions on cartoons that I made. I'll give you an example of what incongruous humor is for a young child. One of the things I drew was a, it basically was a cartoon, and I cut off the last frame. And so, it was a little bird, obviously making a nest. And he ran out and got a leaf, and he brought it back. And he ran out, got a, flew out, rather, and got a stick. Made this nest. And of course, the ending should have been that the bird was sitting in his nest. But the ending I drew, you had three choices, was the bird with his legs crossed watching a TV in his nest. That was a funny ending. Then there was one where the bird flew away, which would make no sense, and then there was one where the bird sat on his or her nest. It was fascinating to watch children respond to incongruous humor. Some of them right away, and mostly the hearing children, got it. And then the the deaf children tended to finish the cartoon and have the bird sitting on the nest. And it was my thought that we spend so much time with kids with special needs teaching them, skills, skills, skills. skills, skills. We forget about humor. And when I was a teacher, I was, I only taught for a couple of years, a few years. I used humor all the time. All the time in the classroom. And I watch the teachers here at my school using it often. The more you can use humor, I think, with children, the more engaging the work is. And the more you engage children, the better they will perform. So you say, what would I recommend to people in my field? I think humor is a great thing to put into the interview session even with the parents. You have to kind of play that a little carefully because not everyone has a sense of humor. And I can, after 30 years, I can tell who does and who doesn't. And I don't use it if it's if it's not appropriate. That was actually going to be my next question, which is, talking about humor, how can you tell which parents are going to respond to humor and which aren't? There was a book years ago called Blink. I never read it, but I mean, I saw it at the local bookstore. Malcom Gladwell Did he write it? Basically, in that book, I guess Malcolm said, you know it when you see it. Whatever field you're in, you know it when you see it. We know a child who's going to thrive at Dalton when we see that child. We know a family who is authentically engaged after observing our school And the same thing goes with humor. You, you kind of know your audience within a few seconds. A funny situation was I once got the most hysterical parent statement from an applicant's parents. And I could not wait to meet these, this family, because, ah, I, I love when I can use humor in a parent meeting. And of course, we require a parent meeting for every applicant. This was drop dead hysterically funny. So I couldn't, I was counting the days for that parent meeting. Get into the parent meeting, and I said, I have to tell you, seriously, I don't say this to everybody, that was a wonderful parent statement you wrote, and I was like, doubled over laughing. It was wonderful. And within a minute and a half, I determined, those parents did not write that parent statement. Because they no more had a sense of humor than a man on the moon. Oh my God. And I had to completely pivot with my excitement because somebody wrote that for them. That's also what parents can do. I hope they don't, but when there's a mismatch, it's pretty clear. But they get other people to write their parents statement about their children. There are consultants will do that. That one I remember vividly because it was such a disappointment to me. I couldn't wait. That's so tragic. But you can tell right away I'm sure if I was ever a stand up comedian, you can read your audience pretty quickly. Hopefully they have a sense of humor, but there are a number of folks who don't, and it's not appropriate then to use it because it's, it's just going to make them nervous and everything's going to fall flat. And it doesn't mean that people who don't have a sense of humor aren't going to be as impressive to me. It's okay. It's who they are and that's fine. You don't have to have a sense of humor. I think it does help in life. What are questions that you ask parents that help give a sense of who a four year old is going to grow up to be? You mentioned at the very beginning that it's important to understand the environment that a child's growing up in. Well, anyone who has met with me over the past 30 years, though I haven't been asking it as recently, but I used to say "if you had a crystal ball, and you could see your child 20 years from now, making that child 24 years old. What do you want to see?" Now, here's the problem with questions in a parent meeting. People share what I ask. So then folks come in all prepared. And the point of this parent meeting is some spontaneity that I'm looking for. So I have to keep changing my questions. So I did ask that one for a number of years and it it would often say some very interesting things. Often they would just say, "I want them to be happy," which is fine, I would want my children to be happy too, but I wanted a little bit more. But the issue of questioning in admissions, both with children and with adults, is that you have to keep changing because the word gets out. And we know that these little four year olds, I can see it when I'm looking out my window. Their parents are grilling them when they get out of here. "What'd they ask? What'd they ask? What'd they ask?" These are four year olds. And believe it or not, these kids have very good memories. And very often they will, tell families. And sure enough, we'll have to change some questions. That's one question I asked. I often have asked, "So, you've been to see our school and you've seen lots of schools now. If I was to give you some bricks and mortar and you could build a school, what do you want it to be like for your child? I'm not asking about your second child or your third child, or your neighbor's child. For your child. What do you want?" That will tell a lot. But you have to keep changing. Of course. Because that word gets around and then they come in all prepped and ready to go. That's the problem with, or the challenge, I won't call it a problem, but it is a challenge in admissions, for authenticity. I get it, they don't have that long a time with me, what, 30 minutes, maybe longer, maybe shorter, depending on the meeting. But they're trying very hard to impress you, and to ask questions that I will think are pithy, and show they've done their homework. I really look for the authentic responses and the authentic questions that come from them to me. I've had some doozies, where they ask me doozies. Okay, Babby, I'll bite. I'll give you an example, just in case you were going to I, I am gonna ask, of course. I kind of, I, I was kind of baiting you for that one. Let's, let's face it. So, about 15 years ago, the phone rings. And the parent says, "Hello." I said, "well, hello." Because I will talk to anybody. I, you know, they don't, it doesn't go through an office and get cut off. Anybody wants my help, whether they apply to our school or not, I'm happy to give. "So, uh, My name is John Smith, and I'm calling you from Uh, the hospital because my wife just gave birth." No. And I would like to know if you could send me a list of books that you would recommend that I start reading to my child from birth to age four, when we would then be applying to your school. Could you send, could you fax that list to the hospital, so I could start reading to my child?" No. Right. Uh, I think the one that took the cake was a Dalton alum. I'm not proud of this, but it was an alum, boy, you people in England are going to think this is crazy if this, anyone hears this in England. This is a global podcast. Oh, phew, okay, makes me, then people in New York can, will recognize this, or maybe not. "I know this is a kind of a strange question, but you know we live in New York. Um, When would be the best time for my wife and I to conceive our child for admissions purposes? Should we have the child in the fall, so he or she or they could be on the older end? Is it a disadvantage? Should we stay away from the summer? Um, I really need your expertise on this. We're about to start our family, but we're not gonna, we're not gonna do it until I have some input from you." Oh my god. And I, I said, "you know, first give me your names, give me your names so I can remember four years from now, because this is not boding well." So, yes, I get asked some very very strange questions. Those are two of my favorite. Babby, you're like God. You're some like divine being. Some people will pray, and then some people will have Babby on speed dial just to, run the important questions by you. I mean, Antonia, should I be going around New York neighborhoods with a megaphone saying, "Don't do it tonight! Don't do it tonight. It means nine months from now, you'll have an August child." And you know, people are worried about that. Oh my God, I'm dying. By the way, we have absolutely no, prejudice about whether kids are young or old, summer birthdays or anything. But parents, you know, there's so much stuff on the street that they fear that their summer birthday young child will be at a disadvantage. So yes, I get the gamut of questions. My husband bought me a journal when I first started this job. He told me I should be writing down all these stories. And I have been very very bad about it, because the journal should be full by now, but I remember a lot of these stories. Yeah, come on, Babby. For when Antonia Hellman asks you to be on her podcast, we need this journal. Yeah, okay. Well, I'll try and pull back the memories. There are quite a few of them, but I did not write them down. Okay, well, taking a little bit more of a positive spin, are there any questions that you've been asked by parents or children at the end of an interview that are stand out questions because they were good? Well, Again, problem of the chat, I keep saying problem, but the challenge of admissions is authenticity. So their questions tend to be pretty bland because they're just trying to get housekeeping stuff down. I get this question, uh, "what would you say is the weakness of your school?" "What would you change?" How is it, I went to this school, by the way, so I'm an alumna of, the school I work at. How is it different from when you were there?" Back then, what would you have changed?" So I don't get those sort of standout questions that, have been very different from each other. And people are afraid to ask questions that might turn me off. Which is so sad because it's not the way I have been an admissions director. Our motto of our school is "Go Forth Unafraid." I feel as though, you know, some of these parents, I wish they would go forth unafraid and really ask me what's on their mind instead of finding the information out from neighbors or people who attended our school 30 years Reddit. Yeah. it's it's too bad. But I don't find that the questions are the questions probably they really want to ask me. Basically, how do I get my kid into your school is really probably what they want to ask me. They do ask questions like, what will improve our chances?" Kind of thing, and I have to just spin that around, saying, "it's not anything you're going to be able to do. Just trust that, we're pretty good at what we do. If it's the right match, your child will find his or her or their, right place, there are plenty of schools in New York City," I say, my peers, my colleagues in the other schools do very similar things to what I do which is trying to find the best fit for a child." I guess the answer to "what would improve my chances?" is i f you turned around and said "well If you can ask me something with some humor in it. If you can ask me something funny. Make me laugh." That would be good! Well, I once had an applicant whose father worked for Dairy Queen, which is like an ice cream store here in the States. And I happen to love ice cream, and I happen to love hot fudge which is my favorite. Unfortunately, you know, there's not many chocolates I can eat because I have this stupid soy allergy. Every chocolate has soy in it. Terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible. If anybody from Big Chocolate is listening to this podcast right now, it needs to have less soy in it. Oh, yeah, that's right. That's how you get into, Yeah, find me some soy free chocolate and your kid gets in. only kidding. That's not true. And I'm only the director of admissions for four more weeks. So it's, I'm really kidding. But I, I did get so excited that he he was the head of a whole franchise at Dairy Queen in the Northeast that I almost forgot to talk about, his child. I was so excited about, the fact that I love their hot fudge. So wouldn't you know, like, two weeks later, what arrives at Dalton but a giant box. I mean, It was bigger than I was. I'm 5'2, the box was huge. And it was an entire vat of Dairy Queen hot fudge. Which, of course, I could not accept, because you can't even accept a peanut during the admission season. We send them back. That's a bribe Oh, it was so hard to send that back. I can't begin to tell you, it was probably one of the hardest moments of my career. But I had to send it back and tell him, you know, how touched I was. But I couldn't accept it, and he was a sweetheart to send it. But, I'm sorry, it had to go back. Devastating You know, we have those moments, but you can't imagine things I've sent back over the years. Where people, I know they're doing it from the right place in their heart. Most of the time. But I can't accept any. We don't accept anything. That's good to know There was once, in my first week. I was, this is really. I don't know if there are other admissions directors who ever had this happen to them, but I was called out to the lobby, and there was a woman sitting on the on the banquette, and who wanted to see me. And so the, person at the desk had called me from the lobby. And I sat down next to her and she said, "I don't have an application in," and she had a, um, an accent, a southern accent I think I remember. She said, "but I do have a personal check with me. And I wanted to know if I fill it out to you, not to the school, would there be a chance that I could be able to get my child into your school?" Wow And she said, "I'll make it for as much money as you want," and I was, I was so thrown, I said, No, that's not the way it's done. And no, I'm very sorry, but no." That's the first time I was ever offered money, She said "a blank check to your name" and I, Oh my God, I really didn't, I was so thrown my first year, with something like that happening, but you know, it does happen that way. She left obviously disappointed with her check in her pocket. Parents are crazy. Yeah And I can say that. I mean, It's a little bit messed up for me to say, that as somebody with wonderful parents and also as somebody who isn't a parent myself. Yeah. I'm sure that a lot of parents would go to great lengths for their children. That's the thing. Antonia, you have to wait until you have a child and all of a sudden things change. Not that you would offer a million dollar check, but it does get, this is their this is their pride and joy. This is, this is, the world revolves around them and if it's a first child, they truly, and they should believe this is the most wonderful child on earth. and so, they just want the best for their children. I know where they're coming from. You know, one of the advantages of a Dalton education is we do a lot of interdisciplinary thinking. And one of the things I think that helped, having gone to Dalton, and learning to think in all different ways, and putting pieces together, and to look at multiple perspectives, is, in this job, my role is to look at the child's perspective, and how he or she or they are feeling when they come into a room that's not something they're comfortable with. The parent's perspective of knowing that this is their most wonderful little being that that they have. And I get that. And I never fault a parent for going overboard. And from the perspective of my admissions committee, how I present to them, multiple perspectives are needed, I think in any job that one has in this particular position. It has been truly a blessing for me to look at things from all different ways. And I do thank the schooling I had and my family who who taught me to take it out of myself and put myself in the shoes of that parent and to make sure that parent's shoulders go down and that those parents feel welcome no matter who they are. And we, we meet families from all different walks of life. From, you know, the biggest hedge fund person to people who work in schools and office buildings, people who who are firemen. All these people who are terrific parents who want the same thing for their children. My job is to put myself in their shoes to make them feel really comfortable. If they walk out of this school and say, That was what I thought it was going to be, and I felt really comfortable." And I'm not able to take their child because we can only take a tiny number of children. If they walk out knowing they had a good experience, that to me would be a legacy that, that I hope will continue at Dalton long after I'm gone. And I think in any any school that's doing admissions, you want those families to leave feeling valued, feeling welcome, feeling sort of like a, I don't want to say a sense of love around them, but that's the way my family taught me, the way I grew up and it is sort of the way I, I have run any parts of my career. Admissions have been great. What a journey. It has been the best. I've loved every minute of it. it And you're certainly very good at it. What I see is that I mean with the fact that you've championed diversity, and you're really trying to build these well rounded classes of Dalton students, the questions that you ask kids and the questions that you ask their parents too seem kind of like a great equalizer. You get parents who are all different but really you're asking them, you know, "tell me about your child." And I'm sure you asked them to talk about their backgrounds and what's meaningful to them and what's brought them to where they are now. Yeah, I mean, I do ask some things also like, so if your child, had some free time, and you peeked in the door, what would you see them doing? I ask them things like, it's Sunday morning, what's happening in your household?" It's so funny, I don't know if this is just New York. But my husband once wanted me to write a book because, we keep hearing that every Sunday morning they "make pancakes." Every New York City parent makes pancakes on Sunday. When I asked my daughter this, who does live in Massachusetts, she said, That really probably doesn't always happen." She said, you know, Saturday or Sunday, I'm putting a bowl of cereal out, giving them the milk, and they're sitting eating their cereal and probably watching one of their favorite shows." But then I said, "no, I really do ask, everyone eats pancakes. Everyone makes pancakes with their children." And then I said, I always ask the question kind of like, What are you most proud about, with your children? What are you proudest about?" And I very often hear, my child is extraordinarily empathetic." Well, I love hearing that. It's just that it's almost every child. So my husband thought I should write a book called "Pancakes and Empathy," because it seems to be what every family in New York City is all about, pancakes and empathy. Oh my god, I would read that. Yeah, Okay, well, you know, as I said, my journal is empty, so I'm not sure what I'm going to put in it. I'll help you write it. I can interview you and then we'll use the interviews to put together your book. We'll work together. That's right. We'll work together on it. That sounds great. I'll be a ghost writer. I don't even need credit. Alright, Antonia, you've got a deal. Perfect. I have two questions for you before I let you go. The first is, I actually need to ask this on behalf of myself, but also on behalf of my parents, which is, the lore of how I got into Dalton was, my father and I were playing in Central Park. And you walked by, and you saw me, or you saw him, I don't know, I was four years old, maybe even three. And you went up to us, and I like to think of it as you scouted me. What's the story from your perspective? And please bear in mind that if it isn't super, super special, that's probably going to challenge my entire sense of self. Okay, if I see, if I see a parent having a wonderful interaction with a child, and I watch it for a couple of seconds, I will go up to that parent and say, I love the way you were talking to your child. How old is your child?" And sometimes they're two, sometimes they're three. It's that parent interaction as well as that child. So, yes, I remember doing that in Central Park. I've done it on grocery lines. I've done it, I was standing in a store years ago, and there was a grandmother With her granddaughter, and the little girl was saying, "Grandma, I really don't want a present unless I can get one for Timmy," And the grandma was saying, "well, you know, we're already in line," she said, "well, I'll just put it back then." She couldn't have been more than three. And I said to grandma, "that was quite an impressive interchange, uh, with you and your granddaughter. Where does she live?" And they said, "oh, she lives in New York." I said, "oh, so when she's four years old, please, would you please make sure the parents come to meet me and here's my card." She's graduated from Dalton. She's a sophomore in college, next year, a sophomore in college. So, I want to tell you at the endings, usually they do follow up on it. so, yes, Antonia, I did see you in, in Central Park. I have done that many times. If there's something special about that child, and obviously you caught my attention. I have no compunctions about saying to the parent, when the time comes, I'd love to see your child." Well, that's lovely. Wait, wait, there was one more that I just loved. Yes. I was walking on 3rd Avenue, there was a little girl, and she must have been no more than three, and she's talking to her mother, she says, I don't know why I can't go to sleepaway camp." and I, and the mother says to her, "because you're three." And she said, "but my older sister, my friends go to sleepaway camp. I have a sleeping bag. I can go." And the two of them are talking. I, you know, the mother looked behind. I looked like I was stalking them because I was fascinated by this conversation. We get to the corner and I approached the woman. I said, I love that interchange with your daughter." She's looking at me like, "who are you?" You know, like, "you're stalking us. What? I don't know you." I said, "how old is she?" And she doesn't want to tell me. She says, "she's three. And I said, "do you live in New York?" And the mother's kind of like backing off. And she said "yes." And I said, "what nursery school?" And she said a school in the neighborhood. I said, "Oh, I love that school." She said, "Oh, who are you?" And I said, "well, hi, my name's Babby. I'm the director of admissions at Dalton." She goes, "Oh, you're Babby. We know about you." And that child is at Dalton. The sister's at Dalton. And the mom is one of my most favorite moms at the school. So yes, Antonia, that's what I did. Maybe it'll stop now because, as I say, I only have, I only have five more, weeks. I hope that that girl somehow made it to sleepaway camp. Because it sounds like that's her dream. Uh, I think she's now in about fifth grade. I think I've heard mom talking about it. So I think she's got the sleeping bag. She's ready to go. She's never been more ready for anything in her life, but what I'm hearing is that maybe I was special, but maybe I wasn't because it seems like this is a regular thing for you, but I'm gonna stick with I was special. Antonia, that's over 30 years. I've only done it like a handful of times, and you were one of those handful. So, I think you can continue to puff out your chest, as we say, and feel very good about yourself that you were one of the six that I probably picked out in Central Wow, But, by the way, families are important to me as kids. So, that's why I'm always looking at that interchange with the parent and the child. Of course. And trust me, I think as proud as I am to be the child in that exchange, my father is even more proud to be the father in that exchange. So just to conclude this wonderful and honestly, this is, this has been such a joy of a conversation, but I want to wrap it up with a question that I ask all of my guests, which is what is one question that you like to work into a conversation, whether it's at work or in a social setting that really helps you get to know someone? I think I would ask the question, sort of like what I do ask the families about their child and about themselves. What do you do in your free time? What podcast do you listen to? What books do you read? Do you follow sports? All you need to do is to get people talking about themselves in that regard, and free time is a wonderful way to delve a little bit more deeply, as opposed to "What do you do in life?" I think a lot of what I'm after when I ask questions both to parents and to kids is I'm trying to uncover a passion, even if it's about volcanoes cars electricity dinosaurs or princesses. That's how you get a child talking because that's their passion. That's their interest. That's what they have great ideas about. For adults, I think the same thing. Take the time to go a little deeply and ask them what they do when they have free time. That would be the question I would ask. I love that because it also shows the parents that you're talking to, that it is important that they have something that they enjoy and that they play. That's something that gets lost for a lot of adults. I'll give you one more study that sort of is what you're talking about. I think curiosity and creativity, so important to keep. You and I talked about that earlier in, our conversation. Children lose it, and adults lose it unless you encourage it, unless you invest time in it. One of my favorite, TED talks is actually a British fellow, Kenneth Robinson, who's a Sir. I think he was knighted. That schools do the darndest job of squeezing creativity and curiosity out of children. And he cites a study that was done a while ago, where they asked a good number of children, I believe it was 1, 600 children, eight or nine different tests of divergent thinking, which is a way to assess creativity. And they found at the age of five, over 98 percent of those children, I might be quoting some of the stats wrong, but pretty close, could be considered creative geniuses. They top out. Their minds work in those creative ways. Five years later, that same assessment was given to 10 year olds, and they found the number was down to 32 percent. Five years later, they gave it to 15 year olds, it was down to 12 percent. And when they asked a vast number of 25 year olds, only 2 percent were still highly creative. So, I think what's stopping these kids from asking questions, from being curious is this need that parents are feeling and people are feeling to just keep filling up everybody's time with more and more activities and scheduled playtime. Scheduled, as opposed to letting a child or letting an adult have that time to be reflective, to come up with a project, to be bored. It's one of the best ways to be asking yourself questions of what can I come up with that would be stimulating and creative in my life. And for children, we are robbing them of the time they need to think, to look at a book. We are not letting kids have that time and yet what we need in society are these innovative, curious thinkers who ask questions. So, that would be how I would end this wonderful conversation you and I have had. And again, it was an honor because I am coming to the end of that journey. But I'll keep asking questions. Please keep asking questions, and I cannot thank you enough for not just sitting down with me today for this chat, but for everything that you've given me. For my education, for finding me in a park, for treating my family and my parents so well, and my younger brother who also went to Dalton. I am who I am because of you, and this is such an insane full circle moment for me to be sitting down to talk to you about this. And I, I'm wishing you all of the best in this next phase of your of your life, and honestly, you've changed a lot of people's lives. Thank you, Antonia. Your words really, really mean a lot. I appreciate it. Truly, I was very excited about this conversation. It was really really a pleasure to sit down and chat with you. And when you're in the city, come say hi to me. Okay. Was that crazy or what? I am not joking. While I was hearing those stories, I was practically choking laughing because of some of the stuff that she was saying. I can't believe the lengths that certain people will go to, those phone calls that she gets, the people who are waiting in the lobby, oh my god. Like I said, I don't have children. So it's really difficult for me to understand, as much as I try. But the lengths to which people will go to ingratiate themselves with Babby and get their kids into Dalton is truly madness. And I don't know if that means that something is fundamentally broken in our educational system, and it probably is. But the bottom line and the takeaway from this episode is that Babby is a wonderful person. She's so funny. She's got the best energy ever. And Dalton is really lucky to have had her for the past 30 years. I'm very lucky to have met her. So the question that she left us with at the end had me thinking. I think that it is so important for people to have hobbies. I know that the world is so busy and we always feel like we're in this rat race to accomplish things in our careers, to be the one who's on Slack or on our emails at 2 a. m. I think that what makes an interesting person is passions, hobbies, a life outside of work. An understanding of what they enjoy doing for fun. So I really loved that Babby suggested this question at the end. I also think that we have a tendency, and this is a little bit of a trend that I've been seeing as I've been speaking to people about QuestionAble Strategy and the questions that they like to ask is, there are a lot of questions that people ask that have to do with worsts, or what's stressing people out, or what they like the least or what gives them the ick or lots of things that just have a negative connotation. They try and tap into people's negative feelings. I think there's definitely a time and place for that, and I find those questions and that information to be really telling about somebody, but it's nice to have a question that I get to go out and use in the wild that is purely positive. So I thank Babby for that. Thank you, Babby. Now, a couple of days ago, I was at a dinner party with a bunch of my parents friends. And I can hang with people who are older than I am, but I kind of found myself in a conversation with the only other quote unquote young person there, who happened to be the host's cousin. And I kind of found myself in a conversation with the only other quote unquote young person there, who happened to be the host's cousin. So this guy was serious and smart. He was doing a PhD in international policy. And so we talked for over an hour about China and the importance of regulating certain high tech weaponry. And I studied political science and economics, so I can hold my own in a conversation about international affairs, but at one point, I felt like the conversation had spent so much time being so serious that we could lighten it up a bit. I knew more about what he was studying than I knew about him as a person. So that's when this question really came in handy. I said something along the lines of "your research is really intense. What do you like to do for fun in your free time?" And that's when he told me that he plays the clarinet and he's been playing it for years and he used to be in a band. And, on top of that, more recently, he's picked up the digital saxophone and has been experimenting with new sounds. And I thought, wow, that's just not something that I would have expected. I thought that was so cool. I love it when somebody surprises me with a hobby or a fun fact that I didn't know about them. And so, I found that this is a great question to use if a conversation is getting a bit serious for your liking or if you want to shift the topic to something a bit lighter. And if me saying that kind of makes you nervous, kind of makes you think, well, what if they think that I'm too dumb or that I don't understand what they're talking about, and all I want to do is talk about fun stuff and less serious stuff?" In this context, asking this question didn't indicate that I was unable to carry myself in a serious conversation. In fact, I mentioned this, we had already been talking for an hour about a really heavy topic. But this lighter question fit really well with the levity of the event. In contrast, though, I probably wouldn't jump to ask this at a business event, per se. Something more serious and more professional, unless I felt like I knew the person I was speaking to well enough, or had been speaking to them long enough to step outside the bounds of a strictly professional conversation. So, I wouldn't say that this question is a risky question to ask. In fact, most people love talking about their hobbies. So do not be scared to use this question. It's a really good one to have in your back pocket, and learning about what somebody does in their free time will tell you a lot about them. Who knows? You may even find that you do the same things in your free time, and that just opens up a whole new door to meaningful conversations and connections. This has been an episode of QuestionAble Strategy. I'm your host, Antonia Hellman, and if you like what you just heard, go back. We've got some great episodes already up with practical tips that you can apply to asking questions in your everyday life. And in fact, here's a question that you can go and ask your friends: Have you listened to QuestionAble Strategy?" And if their answer is no, just send them the link. And while you're at it, follow, like, subscribe, leave a review. It all helps. Let me know what you're interested in hearing about and who you're interested in hearing from. Where there's a will, there's a way, and we can get them on the podcast. Till then I'm Antonia Hellman, and I will see you next time.
