Episode Transcript
I love going back to the question of what do they want? And why can't they get it? I do think that a lot of what drives the narrative, in a lot of cases, is someone really wants something, in the sense of they want to be a different person, they want a certain accomplishment, they want someone to love them, there are a lot of ways that this could go, but if they can't have them, then what will they do? How will they react to that? And that answer to the question often, I think, separates the bad guys and the good guys. Hey everyone, it's Antonia back with another episode of QuestionAble Strategy. And the voice you just heard was Christina Li. Christina is an award winning novelist of two children's books called Clues to the Universe and Ruby Lost and Found, as well as the young adult novel, True Love and Other Impossible Odds. She's making her adult literary debut with her book, The Manor of Dreams. This is an especially exciting episode for me because Christina and I went to Stanford together and we were co founders of StanfordVotes, which was an initiative to boost voter turnout on campus. And in addition to that, we took an introductory writing course together our freshman year, which we talk a little about in the episode. It's been an incredible experience for me to watch all of Christina's success, and I'm just so thrilled that she came to chat with me about all the steps to the novel writing process. This is how a young adult novelist asks questions with Christina Li. Christina welcome to QuestionAble Strategy. Thank you for having me. But also we go way back. I don't even know what? Eight years because we were in the same PWR course, which is intro to writing which is kind of a pride of my life knowing that I was in the same introductory writing course as a published author. I don't know what happened to me, but clearly it did something for you. I was gonna say, I don't even remember PWR. I remember us doing StanfordVotes together. That's one of the fondest memories I have with you. Trust me, I wasn't saying that writing class with you was my fondest memory, but that's actually one of the reasons why I was so excited to take that role with StanfordVotes. Cause I was like, "Oh, I'd be working with Christina. I know Christina. I had a class with her." And I think that's how we just kind of gelled. So that's giving context for anybody who's listening. To kick this off, I have a question for you, who inspired you to be curious? I think the person who inspired me to be curious has always been my dad. I grew up in Chicago and Chicago has a lot of really great museums and museum culture and just growing up near a city that had that resource was incredible. And so he would take me to these awesome museums for fun on the weekends. That's the kind of dad he was. And every time after, in the car ride back home, he would be like, "tell me your three takeaways from this museum. it wasn't a fun thing. It was an educational experience. And it was really fun on the side. So I think he's the person that really inspired me to just truly ask a lot of questions and not just to take things at face value. I relate to that so strongly, the whole educational way, not in a fun way. So you're an author. You've written three books that are published right now, and you've got a fourth that's coming out in March, which is excellent, by the way. In what way do you find yourself drawing from your own life the most for your books? So authors really say that inspiration comes from all around me, and I always thought that was such a cop-out answer. And now that I am an author, it is that way. There's this author out there called Lauren Groff. I believe she's most famous for, I think, writing Fates and Furies, The Matrix, Florida. And the way that she describes coming up with ideas and being inspired is that the way it happens, it's almost like a chemical reaction, right? Like the concept of like fusion of ideas that come together. And so what inspires me in my life and what inspires me to write the things that I do are things that I noticed in my life, but also things that really matter to me, topics that really matter to me. And what matters to me that I found that I like writing a lot about in my books are the ideas of people you love, but also conflicted relationships with the people you love and just a very character-based perspective into stories. But also I was inspired by a lot of things such as the classes I took in college, or the things I grew up with. I wrote a book about Chinatown because I spent a lot of my childhood going to Chinatown, and so it really is these like facts that come together from all areas of my life. It's just the way I combine them that feels unique to me. I think that stands out a lot, and for instance, all of your books feature Asian characters in the forefront, whether they're fully Asian, whether they're partly Asian which I know I could relate to. I was reading Clues to the Universe first, and your main character, one of the main characters, is a half-Chinese girl and I was like, "oh, that's me!" I'm 26 years old, but I can see myself in this character this super nerdy character who just wants to build stuff. How do you think about people relating to your characters? Does that cross your mind at all while you're writing? I think about that a lot because I want to write stories that, first and foremost, feel true to me. And so yeah, all of my main characters are Asian. I wrote my first book, Clues to the Universe. It's dedicated to my childhood best friend. My childhood best friend is also biracial Chinese. And so I wrote that and I really wanted it to be a story, I think, for them to relate to and also as my personal love letter to them. In terms of writing characters to relate to like my YA, it's about a queer Chinese American character who realizes that she's queer later on in life and maybe not necessarily like in her early teenage years. And that's an experience that I relate to. And so I wrote that as something that was true to me. But I've had a lot of readers come up to me and say, as a queer Asian American person, I really was touched by the story because it's something that I saw myself in." Whether it's the characterization itself or it's the way that the character relates to her immigrant family or the societal expectations around her, I think first and foremost, I write stories that are true to me and then hopefully it finds the people it finds, and they're able to relate to it in some way or another. I wonder on the topic of relating to your characters, if you get parents as well, who come up to you and say, "Oh, your writing actually made me realize that I'm treating my child in a way that I shouldn't be, or in a way that I should be." Does it resonate with parents too? It does. So my children's book resonates with parents. It's really interesting. The children notice how the child main characters act. And then parents notice how the child- parent dynamics are in the stories. I feel like that's the most common reaction to that. I have heard people say, in passing when I'm at conferences or I'm at events or something, they say to me "I really loved how you included an intergenerational family dynamic" in my story, especially in Clues to the Universe and in Ruby Lost and Found. There's this concept of big family, and also found family. Also in Ruby Lost and Found, Ruby does not have the best relationship with her parents, and I feel like that's something that emotionally strains and that's something that sometimes parents don't relate to at all, they're like, "how could Ruby's parents be so mean to her and discouraging to her?" But other parents are like, "oh, I loved how complicated it was." And so yeah, it's interesting because I feel like parents reflect on how they parent their children through my parent- child relationship dynamics in my books. That's such a weighty responsibility, and I feel like, A common theme that I saw throughout all of your books actually is that the children and the young adults in the room tend to see some piece of truth that the parents can't see or understand for some reason, which then leads to tension and strife and these strained relationships. So what questions do you ask yourself to dig up those experiences from your own past and channel them into your characters? I feel like that's a responsibility that I take pretty seriously because I am now an adult. Look, when I started writing I was a teenager and so like I was the age of my characters and I started out writing young adult way back in the day. And so at that time I was just truly saying whatever right because I was a young adult, I was speaking from my POV but now the older I get, I wrote my first middle grade book when I was 18, and even then I wasn't a 12 year old pre tween character or something. I feel more and more responsible to accurately portray and think about: how would a teen of this age perceive the world around them? And those children's books have been honestly really intuitive for me to write. A question I get a lot is, "how does it differ writing for a younger audience versus writing from the POV of an adult character, for example?" When I'm writing children and about children and from the perspective of a child, I can be so direct. Because the things that I remember the most from my childhood and the things that I draw on when I'm trying to conjure that voice is I just called things as I saw them, right? There's not really a lot of obfuscation, or there's not a lot of spin I put on things. You notice things as a child, you say them. Children just see things very clearly. And, oftentimes in a lot of children's books, It really is the child who is the voice of truth and the most reliable narrator in the room. So yeah, that's what I draw on. How did I see things when I was younger? How did I talk about things? I find that, as an adult I just think so much more about the context of what I'm saying and whether I should be saying something, versus as a child, it was like, I saw it, I felt it, I perceived it that's what I'm going to put out into the world. Do you find that that influences the way that you communicate and you behave as an adult? That's really interesting. I definitely, if I take a step back and really try to notice the way that I act in my life as an adult versus the way I acted when I was younger. it doesn't necessarily influence the way I approach things because I'm in such a different place of life than my 13 year old character who's in San Francisco. But it definitely makes me think a little bit. I, I will probably have to think about it later today. You know, like this is like dug up all these questions I should ask myself, which is maybe the point of this podcast. That's exactly the point of the podcast. I just love the idea of taking the gumption that a character like Ruby has, for instance, who's really young, but like we were saying, sees this truth that the adults in the room fail to see. And maybe there's a lot of dancing around how we honestly feel because we feel like the polite thing to do or socially acceptable thing to do is to hide it and not actually express ourselves. So I like that you have this outlet through these children, who may or may not be a reflection of yourself and they may or may not teach you something about yourself as you're writing. But I'd like to think that they do because I'd like to be more like that. Yeah, I would also like to be more like my characters, I think. Bringing it back to the very beginning of a life cycle of a book or a story, What questions do you ask yourself to determine whether a kernel of an idea or the smallest little spark is worth diving into and actually committing tons of time to? I feel like there's a couple of ways that I can tell. First of all, there really is I know I'm going to sound so woo woo here, but like there really is a physical reaction when an idea touches you. I don't know how to describe it, but I do very much believe in the idea of muses coming to find you and ideas and like collaborations with ideas, for what it's worth. But the more sort of down to earth response I would have to this is I take my books as seriously as I would take, for example, a dissertation. Like I really do call my novels dissertations on things. And so they are about topics in my life that I am very interested in. For Clues to the Universe, I was really interested in ideas of friendship and found family and just the combination of art and science. For Ruby Lost and Found I really wrote that because I miss my grandparents a lot. And particularly my grandmother who had dementia. I knew that was an idea that I really wanted to write for a long time, but it wasn't until I read a lot about gentrification in Chinatown and had that come into my life that sort of like reaction happened and those two ideas came together That was a dissertation on memory and loss and change and forgetting things and things just altering beyond your control. And then my third book, True Love and Other Impossible Odds, I wanted that to be a coming of age story. and I wanted it to be a dissertation on the idea of love. That was something that really fascinated me at the time because it wasn't just about romantic love it was about platonic love and familial love and complicated grief and how you can come to love yourself if you are not the person that you thought you were and there's this whole other part of your identity that you're discovering. And so how I decide I want to work on certain books is I pick the topic that interests me the most, and it feels every time I write a book on something, I'm writing a thesis about it. And I feel very academic about it, and very devoted. And so, yeah, if it's not something that I will wake up on a Saturday morning to do, then that's not something that I'm going to pursue. I love hearing you say that because there's so many parallels between that and starting a company and being a founder, which, that's the world that I come from. It's not that I've never thought about how it translates to the world of writing, but to hear you say that, that's exactly how I would think about a company. So I actually happen to know that spark. Yeah, writing feels very startupy. Where you like come up with a concept for a company or you come up the concept of a product or a service and you're like, "I just know that there's people out here who want this." It's long, nebulous, undefined hours. Um, you have to come up with all these ideas for how to market and how to pitch and how to appeal your book or your product to the public. But it is very creative and it's very entrepreneurial and it's very much this is exactly the thing I want to be doing in my spare time. So I love getting to talk to you about that. And it's just you, unless you have a team and you do have a team, you've got agents, you've got publishers, you've got editors, you've got people who are excited to read your chapters. But at the end of the day, you're the one who has to be really self motivated. you're the most at stake. So I've, just gotten really excited because we were talking about how you pick the general idea. What I'm really interested in is how you go about doing research, not necessarily on the general idea, but the really small details that you feel are important to throw in, especially when it comes to cultures that aren't your own. So in Clues to the Universe Benji's best friend is Iranian. And so if you're doing research, you want to make sure that you get it right. So with all the little things that you throw in there, where do you even start? Yeah, that's a great question. So for Benji's best friend who moved away at the beginning of Clues to the Universe I knew that I wanted to portray an accurate experience, even though he is a fairly minor character. I still knew I wanted to get the representation right. And so I actually had a dear friend who ended up agreeing to be a sensitivity reader for the parts of Amir. And there were things that he caught. I tried to do my due diligence and I tried to do my research, but yeah, there were phrases that he caught or ways that we address family that he was like, "it should be this, it shouldn't be that." And so that was really important to me in terms of just getting things right. And also, for example, I'm not biracial, and Ro in the book in Clues to the Universe is and so I had my childhood best friend, who identifies with Ro's identity she helped read it as well and it really helped confirm okay, this is the right way to tell the story or this isn't the right way to tell the story. And then in the sense of other details that I want to get right, I'm very particular about getting small historical details right. Like in a couple of my books, a lot of them are contemporary, but in my upcoming one and in my very first one it's set in a time period that's not right now. And so I made sure to do a lot of research on for example, was this kind of cereal around in the eighties? These are all things that would come up, right? Or like what exact kind of clothing were worn in seventies Hollywood? I remember joining like a Facebook group on vintage clothing to be able to just source the most accurate body of knowledge for this. And so yeah, research is something that matters a lot to me, not necessarily confined to the, okay, these historical events happened during this time, but also just in the very everyday details of life.I was so you jumped to another question that I was really interested in, which is with those historical bits of fiction, you do have a ton of really well researched elements of your stories. Are there certain things that jump out to you that you should research? Are there things in the past that you haven't researched that you've regretted not researching? And are there things that maybe make you pause and say I'm writing fiction. Where does the line start between fiction and getting historical details wrong?" Absolutely. I think that In terms of what I've, maybe not necessarily regretted not researching, but it was very clear when I was writing a book set in the eighties. One of the, I think reviews I saw online was like, the author did not experience any of the decade of the eighties, however, this book is great," or something like that. I simply could not have poofed myself into existence during that decade, but I did try as faithfully as possible to portray that time period and so I was really nervous about that when that book first came out, about writing in historical fiction of course especially because I know people who live through the 80s and I was like a lot of people could call me out right now. But I did end up having generally positive reception about it. The one thing though that I really wish I had more time to dig into or that I just had more material on was, so my upcoming book has a main character, one of the main characters was a Chinese actress in 70s Hollywood and I had a really really helpful resource. There was a book that was just truly my go to source of truth on this. But I really wish I had more research done into exactly what it meant to be a Chinese or Chinese American actress who lived through that time just because there's so little there. there were so few who made it in Hollywood and there's so few to look at and model the experience. And so I wish I had cracked a better way of looking into that time period, and I could have maybe done more reaching out to someone who like, knew a Chinese American actress during that time. But I, I, I never really could figure out how to go about doing that, and that's something that, if I had infinite time and resources in the world, I wish I would have done. I think that's fascinating, but I also can imagine that there are aspiring Chinese or not even just Chinese but Asian actors actresses who might read your book and feel like it's almost a piece of history and kind of use it for their own inspiration. So as unfortunate as it is that there weren't more of them and that it's not as recorded, I really love that you've taken it upon yourself to create that for people. Even if it is creepy. There's some really weird creepy shit that happens in there and I can't wait for people to read it. Another nerdy technical note: what do you ask yourself to assess whether a chapter is actually done? Oh, that's a really good question because I feel like, and this is something that I actually, I don't have a straight answer for. I feel like I could revise a book into infinity. Like my favorite part of the writing process is actually not drafting because I do not write good first drafts. I think my skill really kicks in when I'm rewriting a book or I'm editing a book and I'm like tearing it apart. I'm writing a first draft right now and I'm like, "oh my god, this is the worst thing I've ever written." It's miserable. I'm miserable. I cannot wait to have it be done so I can rewrite it and put it back together. Girl, this but did so much better in that intro writing course than I did. My impression is that when I write a first draft, that's it. It's the best it's gonna get, and I just need to be done with it. I just want everybody to know, Christina was objectively the star of this class. There were a couple of us that were troublemakers, but it was very well known that Christina commanded the room and was top of the game. It was. disheartening to the rest of us how much better you were at this class than we were. You are far too kind to me. And also you guys made that class fun. Otherwise it would have been a really boring, intro writing class. But, I actually, this is like, unearthing a memory for me because what I wrote for that PWR class, so it was a class on California rhetoric, right? And what I ended up writing for that class was actually made it into my book and I didn't realize it at the time, but my rhetoric was on the southern California dream and how the people have this sort of dreamlike, surreal perception of how beautiful southern California is that includes things like Hollywood and Disneyland and everything. But because it's so naturally beautiful, there is also this manufactured beauty behind it, where people were planting agriculture or horticulture that was not native to the area, in order to maintain this pristine image. But the more that we generate that surreal, false, manufactured image, the more we believe in it. Anyway, this is going into like nerd territory, but all this is to say, what I wrote in that intro class, things I write always find its way back to my literature somehow, and I feel like so many of the seeds that were in that original paper about what's real, what's true, what's just a dream it really showed back up, and yeah, anyway, this is just a walk down memory lane for me. Everyone should read The Manor of Dreams. That's the takeaway from this. But speaking of nerdy stuff, I was asking about chapters. How do you end a chapter? Oh, Yeah. Because I notice that occasionally it can be one scene or it can be multiple scenes over the course of different days. So is it just a feeling? The way that I end chapters is sort of on a feeling. It's okay, what's the micro theme of this chapter? We've gotten to this point, we have, we've reached this point of emotional development or character development, or like this big plot point has happened. And then sometimes along the road, my editor will be like, "why is this chapter like 4, 000 words and then the next chapter is like 1, 000 words? Like we need to make this consistent." So sometimes it's a matter of moving things around. But with The Manor of Dreams the way I structured those chapters, it was so difficult because I tried to line them up with POV and who was speaking and who was narrating, but there were chapters where multiple people were narrating. And so it was the challenge of a lifetime to be like, how do we properly signpost the changes in POV, but also know that this overall chapter we have to reveal this plot point? And the only way to reveal this plot point is if multiple people are narrating what happens. And so yeah, it's half when I'm first drafting of ah just a feeling and then the more later stage it gets the more technical it gets. You have to fulfill a certain word count or you have to make sure that this is all self contained within this chapter. And then the editing portion of it is I edit as much as I can, and I rewrite, and I think it's done, and then it goes off to the several rounds of edits, and then I know it's really done. So when you're starting your draft, do you begin with almost a breakdown chapter by chapter of what needs to be revealed plot wise? And then you just make it happen? I wish I started out doing that. There's two schools of people in this world. There's the plotter and then the pantser. I know that to write a book, I need to know the ending. And so I come from the school where I always wrote books by just like exploring and writing and having fun. But many people in my team, agent, editor, whoever, have been like "please write an outline." Um, and it's, it's really helped me. I think the way I like doing this now is I write a chapter by chapter outline after I write the first draft, which I call a "zero draft." So I have the book in front of me and then I have the things that happen in the book. And then from that point on, then I start moving things around or I start showing what needs to be changed. You've done a little bit of improv I think I took an improv class once like I have the most fun in a book when I get to do improv and when something happens and I'm writing a scene and an idea comes to me and I'm not closed to it because I'm not confined by any kind of outline, right? And so that is my happy place. And then all the outlining, all the fixing and editing and everything happens a little bit later down the road for me. Is it the most efficient way? It's absolutely not. That's just how I work. If you're improv-ing and just enjoying seeing where your typing takes you, do you find that that sometimes completely derails the idea for the story that you had, and that can change that ending that you had in your mind? Or when you're improv-ing is it typically just the small details? I haven't had an improv moment that's changed the trajectory of a novel yet. Although, I know that's happened to some of my friends. But sometimes it changes where a scene goes, for sure. And it changes the course of the chapter. Nothing on a seismic level yet, that's definitely something I'm open to. I know people who have thought of an ending halfway through writing their book, and they're like, "this is so much better," and then, I have to rewrite the book to get there, and it's always worth it in the end. So I'm not foreclosed to that possibility, but that just hasn't happened to me yet. I also wanted to ask you about certain symbolism in your writing. How do you assess whether certain things need to be spelled out for the audience as opposed to letting them read into it and trusting that they understand what you're getting at? I, I do a little bit of both. I like to write to like a collaborative reader, any reader who's willing to engage in the standard English analysis of the curtains were yellow. What does that mean?" If they want to engage in it, I've left a lot of easter eggs in there. But if not, there's a lot of times I truly do spell out the themes. I feel like I do it sparingly because even in my children's books I trust that my readers are smart enough to pick up on this I feel like I don't have to explain all of it. But there are recurring motifs through each of my books that I'm like, I feel like I've said this enough that I hope you remember it. And so I hope the main themes I really do emphasize, but the smaller themes I leave as treats. If you want it, you can have it. Are there any small themes or Easter eggs that you've dropped in any of your books that you wish more people came and talked to you about? Oh, that's really interesting. I haven't t yet. But I do enjoy when people come up to me and they're like, "I want to talk about this theme." For Ruby Lost and Found the theme of grandparents, you know, I think someone said like as someone who had a really loving intergenerational relationship with grandparents like this really resonated with me. And so I'm like, I know you're picking up what I'm putting down Which is so gratifying to me And also I try not to read my reviews. So if anyone has said anything there, I probably wouldn't have read it. I think that's healthy. But I personally, I mean, when I was reading through it, I mentioned I'm half Chinese. And so there are so many little things that make me feel so warm and fuzzy inside that other people would just be like, what the hell is that?" So for instance, I was reading, it must've been Ruby Lost and Found. And at one point she gets given some haw flakes. Which are like the snack of my childhood and nobody I know, including myself, knows what a haw is. I don't know what haw is. I've looked it up. But it's it really transports me in particular. I don't know if you're, if I'm your target audience, but it really transported me into that world and how I felt with my grandparents and with my family. And that's exactly. I'm like, I'm so happy that detail, made it in and that it brought back a childhood memory for us, because haw flakes were also my childhood. It's s uch an integral part of my coming of age experience and It's really gratifying that I put it in and someone resonates with that. Success, consider that a success. Shifting a little bit to the more emotional side. Is there one emotion that you feel is easiest to write for your characters? An emotion that's easiest to write so I Really love and I don't know what this says about me I feel like something that is intuitive to me to write is feelings of you really want something and you cannot have it. The idea of ambition or the idea of you want a good relationship with, your parents, but like for some reason, there's barriers to that, or you want a good relationship with your best friend, but something has happened that you are not really on speaking terms anymore. And so that area of conflict is so narratively rich to me. And again, I don't know if this is a healthy mental headspace to have, but just the what's left unsaid, what people do end up saying, what people say to conceal what they really want to say, that always just gets me writing and that always gets me making up stories in my head. Whenever there is some kind of impasse, and someone really wants something to be one way and it cannot be that way. What is the motivation? How do they move forward? Going forwards and backwards. It's just, it just feels intuitive. How do you strike the right balance? Because, for me, the most frustrating thing that I find when I'm watching TV shows or reading a book, not your books, but just reading in general, is sometimes so much of the plot is driven by a miscommunication or misunderstanding. How do you strike the right balance and make sure that the stories stay real and the relationships stay real without milking a misunderstanding too much that it feels tired? I um, that is such a good question. Because one of the things that does also annoy me is when characters don't talk to each other and I'm like we have so many inventions known to man in which you could be able to talk this out or sort this out," but it really is a I guess mark of human nature where we have all these things that could aid our communication, and yet we still don't based on our own insecurities or based on what we think or what we believe. One of the things in True Love and Other Impossible Odds, is this main character is not talking to her childhood best friend. And that is so frustrating to me. Something I loved writing about, but also something that I was like, if this was in real life we would have ended our friendship already. And I think that the way that I try to make it real is that, I try to have a really good motivation for why characters are not talking or characters are not communicating that the way they should. Either one of them has been hurt by the other in the past or one of them is working through something. For example in True Love, Grace is working through her, the implications of her homoerotic friendship with her best friend that she chose to not talk to anymore. And that's the reason why they're not talking anymore. And so I know it's frustrating, but I try to make it understandable to the reader, that it's okay, at least I can relate to the reasoning behind this miscommunication. By the way, you mentioned that's the reason why they're not talking and I hope this isn't too much of a spoiler But it's also what brings them back together as well, in a very, relatable way. I want to talk about bad guys for a second. What considerations go into creating an unsympathetic antagonist? Oh, Unsympathetic antagonist. So I haven't written that many villains as of yet. But there are several villains in my upcoming book. What I liked writing is about people who are not necessarily all good people. To make them realistic, I try to make them not cartoonish. I try to make them not like, your only qualities are being bad, and being even worse, and being a horrible person. I try to make them nice and sympathetic, and conflicted and insecure, and all the things that we can relate to. But at the end of the day, they should not be excused or they should not be able to weaponize their moments of sympathy to justify their bad actions. And so that's kind of how I've been able to write these bad, or not great or complicated characters or straight up villains. When you're coming up with these characters, I mean, they could be the more bad guys, or they could be the less bad guys, or they could be the all good guys, what are the guiding questions that you like to anchor yourself in when you're first ideating on who they are? I love going back to the question of what do they want? And why can't they get it? Cause in a lot of these scenarios, if someone wants something or cannot get it, that makes them a bad person because then they start getting it at the cost of other people or they start lashing out or reacting poorly. And I do think that a lot of what drives the narrative, in a lot of cases, is someone really wants something, in the sense of they want to be a different person, they want a certain accomplishment, they want someone to love them, there are a lot of ways that this could go, but if they can't have them, then what will they do? How will they react to that? And that answer to the question often, I think, separates the bad guys and the good guys. I think that's so interesting and I'm just, I can't stop thinking about The Manor of Dreams and how that all plays such a huge role in the story. Everybody, now that I think about every single character has some kind of hurdle that they can't get over, whether it's a supernatural reason why they can't get over it or their own capabilities, their own motivation could be financial. Yeah. Just hearing you say that makes me think so much about my experience reading the book. I, and I, that's something I really like. I love character studies. I wish I was a plot driven writer, but I really am a character driven writer. And it's, that's a very rich field for me. Also, hearing you say that, makes a lot of sense because your books are all told with some kind of flashback. It's clear that it's rooted in the character's development, it's not necessarily rooted in some major event, although that may bring them all together as in The Manor of Dreams. But the flashbacks allow you to fill in why is this person like this? Not necessarily why has what just happened transpired? Yeah, exactly. I'm just trying to jump into your mind. I think that this is so fascinating and I love all of the characters. So in Clues to the Universe and Ruby Lost and Found, the story is really told through the consciousness of one particular character. And I guess in True Love and Other Impossible Odds as well. But how do you decide whether the character knows that they're actually telling a story or not? Oh, yeah. Okay, that's really interesting. I, and that gets into the question of unreliable narrators, right? Because I consider my previous narrators to be pretty reliable people, but I'm veering into unreliable territory with Manor of Dreams, and also I'm writing a very unreliable narrator right now. How do they know they're telling a story? I try to make it sound very conversational. For Clues to the Universe or Ruby Lost and Found, it truly was like they were speaking whatever was on their minds. And so they're not necessarily looking back and being like, "This is what I experienced." They're in real time and they're telling it as they experience it And even if there are flashbacks in the book, those flashbacks are more like interstitials. I think that if you went up to my characters and you're like, "Do you know you're telling a story right now?" I think they probably wouldn't. I think they'd just be like, "No, I'm just living life." And so my goal as a writer is to always be more of slice of life. We're dropping in, we're coming into your life, you're telling your story, but there's not a fourth wall that you're looking at. The reason why I came up with this question at all is there's just one line in chapter 15 in Ruby Lost and Found where Ruby's at a birthday party and she's recounting it and the sentence starts with "long story short." And then I was thinking, "Oh, you only say long story short if you felt like you were telling somebody a story or somebody was listening to you recount a story or you felt like you had to be conscious of somebody else's time." That makes sense. Honestly, yeah, I'm like, do I say long story short to myself? And I really don't, so I think you're right. I can imagine like, maybe she's being con Like, maybe my stories are more conversations. They're more like, you're sitting down, you're chit chatting. I'm the obscure narrator. There's a couple of other moments where, Ruby is getting conversational with her audience. There's a moment early on where she was like, "I had a Pop Tart for breakfast. And my parents weren't sure if that counted, but it does." Like, who are you talking to? What are you trying to prove here? Maybe more conversations than narration, I noticed that and I was on her side. I was like, I actually think that I do talk to myself like that. And I also at that age would think that a Pop Tart certainly counted. Yeah, I love that character. One thing that I love about your books is I love the cover art. What questions do you work through when collaborating with artists for your covers? I love talking about my covers. That's like one of the my favorite. I've been so lucky every single time so I don't design my own covers. I don't like I provide ideas, but I'm not by any means any creative part of the process. So the questions I have what I'm brainstorming, cause I do sometimes get asked for my feedback are what do I want on this cover? So I knew for Ruby Lost and Found, which is one of my favorite book covers of mine, I remember the moment I got it, I was in the Trader Joe's in Palo Alto, the Town and Country Trader Joe's, and I like, started crying. I saw it, and I was like, "oh my god." All that being said, I knew I wanted Ruby on the cover and I wanted some part of Chinatown on the cover. And so however they portrayed that I left it up to them, but that was exactly what came back to me. And then for True Love and Other Impossible Odds, I knew I wanted the main characters on the cover. I knew I wanted them to be kind of ambiguous, like it, it seems romantic and it is, but there's a lot of romance covers and the characters are like standing back to back and I was like, I think I want them facing each other and I want them to be contemplative. And I knew I wanted birds on the cover because birds are a really big theme in the book, but what was so sweet is that the cover artists, her name is Christina Chung, she had the idea to draw the bird patterns in the diagram of the stable match algorithm. which is just such a cool detail that I could have never come up with myself. That's amazing. I didn't notice that I've certainly, I noticed the birds that's a clear symbol that runs through the whole thing. But just staying for a second on the cover art, what's the process? You know a couple of things that you want to feature on the cover, but do you sit down with somebody and then they ask you a line of questions and then even if they don't matter to you as much, you've got to answer all of them? Or do you just let them run with it? So I have been lucky enough and not every publishing team does this, but all of mine have, and I feel so grateful about that. They send me an email. They say, you know, we're working on the cover. It's a bit far out, but like, we're just brainstorming now. So what would you like to see on there? And I send my thoughts back. Sometimes I make a Pinterest board of this is a theme I want to see and the theme I want to go with. And so I send over my Pinterest board for the aesthetic inspirations. I send over verbatim, these are the things I want. The cover process is: they design it they come up with the art, they hire the artist the cover artist they come back to me. I provide feedback. It goes back to them. They tweak it, reflect whatever feedback I provided, or we have a conversation about it. Once all is said and done, and it's finalized, then I get to share it, or my publisher shares it, and it's always such a rewarding experience, because it has felt very collaborative to me. Speaking of that collaboration, I've read your books, but I've also read all of the acknowledgments and I'm really interested in the process of writing acknowledgments and thanking all the people who've helped you. Is that a stressful process? And how have you felt supported by communities of writers as you've been building your career? Writing acknowledgments is, hands down, always my favorite part of the process. As I'm writing them, I'm also reflecting on my experience writing this book and who's helped me get there. And like thanking them in my head as I'm thanking them on the page. I always write it when the book is almost set and ready to go to the printer. The book is the most complete it's ever been, and so writing the acknowledgments feels like when the book is done. It's funny because then there's time before the book publishes and then there's the actual publication of the book but the day the book publishes does not feel like a culmination to me. It's so anxiety inducing that the actual culmination is when I'm in my room by myself and writing my acknowledgments and so that's always been a wonderful part of the process for me. I do have anxiety about it. I have anxiety that I forget people. And I am always like, am I going about thanking the right way? I found that it's always just such a gratifying exercise. You wrote this book, but you had a whole, truly a whole village of people who helped make this happen. Do you ever have people in your life who approach you about any of your stories and feel like they've inspired a character? That's an interesting question. So I try very hard to not base any of my characters on real people. And so if I do it truly is purely accidental. But that being said my childhood friends that like I grew up with they always come to me and they're like Is this based on our substitute teacher we had in like fourth grade?" You know, like like no one has directly approached me and been like, "Hey, is this about me?" like that Euphoria quote. But, I, I have had friends who are like, "this reminds me a lot of the teachers that we've had, or people that we've encountered in our schools." But anything beyond that is purely coincidental. Because I had a moment when I was reading Manor of Dreams when I realized that one of the characters' parents names are the exact names of one of my ex boyfriend's parents. And I had a, is this play about us moment? Yeah, no, I have to be very careful when I'm naming characters of this is not a person in my life, and this is not a person that I'm just like, borrowing, but, um, yes, rest assured, I fully did not base that character on one of your ex boyfriend's parents. I really thought, I mean, Yeah, you just burst my bubble really hard. I'm so sorry, this play is not in fact about us. I had a question, actually, about naming characters specifically when reusing a name. How does that make you feel? So for instance, what I'm referring to mainly is Vivian, which is a very common Chinese American name, but it's used twice in different books. Does that make you feel strange? Do you have an attachment to a certain character or a name that's attributed to a character that you've put so much time and personality into? Yeah, or it's kind of like am I just hyper fixated on the name Vivian? Also a thing I think about partially related to this is, I've used names and I'm like, if I have kids, I can't name them this. Like I have a list of names and I'm like, oh, I've used up all the names I would have used in a story at this point. But Vivian is really special to me because yes, so that is a very common Chinese American first name. And it wasn't coincidental, but it just, Vivian felt right as the older sister of Ruby and the way that I referred to her, she has a nickname and so I was like, she seems right for her. But also when I was writing The Manor of Dreams, I felt so separately this Vivian is reminiscent of Hollywood glamour and Vivian Leigh and old school naming conventions. This is something that sounds very star like but also is culturally accurate. Whereas for Ruby Lost and Found, I was just like, what name could an older sister have? And it was Ruby and Vivian, which I felt were pretty plausible Chinese American names. So I don't think I will name another character Vivian. I think I have used that name enough at this point, but I did think very intentionally about recycling that name. I love that that same name came to you in two separate ways. That makes it pretty clear that you're capable of dividing the two from each other. They're not anchored in the name itself. Talking about Manor of Dreams, this is a really creepy story. And as I was reading it, it was so funny because I was putting it into the context of you as a person and how bubbly and smiley and how much you laugh. And I was like, how the fuck did she come up with this So can you tell us, Christina, how the fuck do you come up with that? like what was going on in there? Um, so gothic thriller, horror. I don't know exactly where this book slots into, but maybe all the above is not something I've written in the past. So this is my first time writing it. And I will say I scared myself writing this book. I'm scared of scary movies. Anything that has a jump scare in it, I'm terrified of. But what I have written before is I have written books on grief, and I have written books on the concept of loss. And that was a common denominator that I was very familiar with writing about. And so in this book, the way that grief appears is through themes of hauntings and themes of supernatural occurrences and themes of you think about this so much and you miss this person so much and you have so much regret over whatever you've done that it truly comes back as nightmare fuel. I don't think I would survive this book personally. However, I did have a lot of fun writing it. And I had a lot of fun exploring a genre I hadn't written in before and I had a lot of fun paying respect to the enduring gothic genre. But it, also has my own spin on it of the emotional side and the familial side of it which I'm very familiar with writing. Also, like, writing it puts you in a weird headspace because there are many heavy topics in the book. I had to be very protective of my own mental space when I was writing it. But I will say that I really, really really enjoyed the process of writing it because it was definitely out of my comfort zone, and it was definitely something that I had a lot of fun in. Does reframing horror and haunting into this framework of grief actually make you able now to watch horror movies and read scarier literature that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to get through? Yeah, especially for gothic literature because I do feel like gothic literature has the sense of there has been a loss or there's been an event in which you have changed forever as a person and cannot return to your original self. And I think that's a lot of where monsters come from or nightmares or like, other creepy stuff. It's made me a lot more sympathetic. I still don't think I can sit through the Saw movies, But some of the horror movies or horror TV series that I've really personally resonated with are like, for example, Midsommar, um, is something that's like very much grounded in grief. Or like, Mike Flanagan's The Haunting of Hill House TV series and adaptation. That's also something that I've been able to, understand and empathize with. And so, yeah, it's been, um, more intuitive to understand horror, but it's still definitely something that I am learning more about. I don't watch anything horror related. I actually find it hard to watch action movies sometimes. I'm a total wimp. And I actually felt when I was reading your book, I was like, Oh, okay. I'm feeling, I'm feeling anxious. I don't hate it, but I wonder what's going to happen. Do you do anything in particular to keep your imagination strong so that you can write stories like this? That's something that I've been thinking about a lot, because candidly I had so much time in school, and now I work a nine to five, and so I have a little less time than before. But something that I'm trying to definitely do to keep my imagination alive is, I need to remind myself that I need to read books and watch movies and do fun things that refill my creative well. Which is something that's hard for me to do because I'm like, "no, you're on deadline. You should be writing." But actually the act of having fun and living life is key to being creative. I also read something and it worked for me when I was like a lot younger. And don't do as much now, but I probably should go back into doing it is, I read this awesome book a long time ago called The Accidental Creative. Highly recommend for anyone who's creative or entrepreneurial. But basically, what he recommended is that every single day you write down a story idea. And it doesn't have to be a good one, but just the act of writing things down. I think it's kind of very similar to comics who write down any jokes that come to them or whatever. It's just puts your head in the headspace of creation. And so the more you do it, the stronger that muscle becomes. And so that's definitely something that I want to get back into. I really like that and I find the way that that manifests in my life is actually whenever I come up with an idea, it's usually when I'm just about to fall asleep. I feel like everybody experiences this. You think, "oh, I'll just remember it in the morning." And then you never do. So what I do because I'm bad and I sleep with my phone next to my bed. I always just go. I'm actually hesitant to say it now because she's going to wake up, but I go, "Hey Siri." Then I, dictate this idea to her, and she creates a little note for me or a reminder so that in the morning I wake up and I see it. I'll never forget it. Yeah. No, that's so smart. Back though to your writing process. So as you've transcended these various different genres, but also age levels with your readers, what's surprised you the most about the difference in the processes that each of them requires? So in terms of what has surprised me, it's just, there is a marked difference in writing for children versus writing for young adult versus writing for adult. Each process feels just as complex as the next. That being said, the voice itself is hard to command. So I started out in writing children. I wrote from the voice of kids who are like 12 or 13. Then I started writing a young adult and I was like, "Oh, I feel like i've gotten down this voice of a tween but now I have to jump to someone who's 18 years old and is a totally different person. And then The Manor of Dreams, that was another entire bag of cats because it was like, "oh my gosh, now I've gotta narrate from the point of what, six or seven women, all different adult ages?" And so I think with the genre shift, or with the age shift, it doesn't feel different necessarily in it feels harder or easier, but it feels like you're like changing time zones constantly. It's difficult, but the more you do it, like I feel more comfortable writing in an adult voice now. And if I have to go back to young adult or middle grade, there definitely is a kind of adjustment period but each one is very fun. I loved reading your books in order actually, because I kind of felt like I was growing up with you. Obviously the characters aren't related to each other, but my thought process was, "oh, she started writing as a kid and then now she's a teenager or a 20 something and oh my god, now she's really come into her own. Not to say that it's any easier to write a book for children. Like you were saying, it's just different, but I could tell in the tone that we were going along for a journey. I'm wondering, is there a question about any of your books that you've been waiting for somebody to ask you? Ooh, I was really waiting for someone to be like, what are the tuning fork, inspirations that influence the Manor of Dreams, which is coming up? I had so many forms of inspiration for that. The Great Gatsby inspired me, Mike Flanagan's Haunting of Hill House inspired me, The Dream of the Red Chamber, this Chinese classic inspired me.. I had a lot of music that inspired me. I love when people ask me not necessarily what inspired the idea of the book, but what were consistent inspirations that you reached for throughout the process of drafting the book? I think that's so rich because you're clearly passionate about it. It's like your dissertation. You've willingly done all of this research, and you probably feel like the average person doesn't share your interest in all of the nitty gritty research that you've done. They're just looking to get a thrill from reading your book. But if you're asked, no, I actually want to know about that research and the really small things that you nerd out about, then you feel like you've got this liberty to get really geeky. Yes, exactly. So the question that I like to end on with all my guests is what is one question that you like to work into a conversation, whether it's at work or in a social setting, that really helps you get to know someone? Ooh. That really helps me get to know someone. let me think about this. I actually consider myself pretty bad at making small talk. That's something I always try to get better at, and try to be like, okay, what are these meaningful questions that I would like to ask someone? But one of my off the cuff icebreaker questions is I love asking people if you could just eat one meal for the rest of your life for every single meal what would it be? And I always love what they come up with because You know, you could have the most decadent, I don't know, sushi, but like, but do you want sushi every single meal for the rest of your life? And so seeing the answers they come up with is always fun to me. That's not something I'm going to ask everyone, but when a party is going late and we're sitting in a circle I might bring that one out. All right. Uno reverse back to you. If you could eat one meal for the rest of your life, what would it be? I've thought about this. I think it would be like a Chipotle burrito bowl. Because it has all the food groups and so it's nutritional. It has a protein and I also, I think it will take me longer to get tired of Chipotle than it would a lot of other meals. So that's my answer for now. I but I would also love to ask if you, have any preliminary thoughts on this. I've absolutely thought about this. I get judged for my answer, which is, baby back ribs and steamed broccoli with salt. Ooh, that's a great meal. I think I would be really deficient in a lot of vitamins. Like I get the practicality of your answer. It could sustain me for a little bit. I have to eat one meal for the rest of my life. We didn't stipulate how long that life needs to be. Oh my God, yeah, that's, that's true. Maybe there's more parameters and maybe the theme is just to, you know, enjoy, have a meal that you would enjoy rather than one that you think is practical. I love ending on that. Christina, this has been an absolute delight. This is probably one of my favorite conversations that I've ever had. And it's so lovely to see you and I'm just so proud of you and everything that you've created. Your mind is so infinitely powerful, it blows me away. Thank you so much for having me on here. I mean, truly, selfishly, like, getting to catch up with you is always such a delight. And also, I'm so proud of you for everything you've done. Having gotten to like start a company and now founding a podcast. Everyone in my life is such a rock star and you are someone that I truly look up to. Oh my gosh, you're so sweet. I adore you and we'll talk soon. Love you so much. I think that questions about food are such fantastic conversation starters. So when Christina suggested, If you could only have one meal for the rest of your life, what would it be? I was really giddy to try and use this one. As Christina said, it's perfect for a party situation or a night out when you're not necessarily trying to have an especially serious time, but it does say a lot about a person. So a couple nights ago, I was out with a few friends and we were just walking from one bar to another and I just blurted out this question. Didn't really need much introduction. It's one of those things that just sort of falls out of your mouth and everybody else laughs and then thinks about their answer. And one person said, Oh, I just couldn't live without spaghetti carbonara. So I guess it's gotta be that. And another friend really sat with it and clearly took liberties with the word "meal" because he literally laid out a full five course meal with multiple appetizers and a dessert. So this made for a really fun, silly conversation with lots of follow up and clarification questions, which had us talking for a solid 15 minutes on our favorite foods. And it even opened up a more philosophical question about whether you would get sick of eating those same things over and over again. So if you're looking for a really low stakes conversation starter that you can, work into pretty much any casual setting, I would recommend this question. Go ahead, try it, and let me know how it goes. This has been an episode of QuestionAble Strategy. I'm your host, Antonia Hellman, and if you like what you just heard, go back. We've got some great episodes already up with practical tips that you can apply to asking questions in your everyday life. And in fact, here's a question that you can go and ask your friends: Have you listened to QuestionAble Strategy?" And if their answer is no, just send them the link. And while you're at it, follow subscribe, leave a review. It all helps. Let me know what you're interested in hearing about and who you're interested in hearing from. Where there's a will, there's a way, and we can get them on the podcast. Till then I'm Antonia Hellman, and I will see you next time.
